Your comment on who copies who is ridiculous…Each o/s copies the other and in the end who benefits – the end user. You would have a hard time saying for example that the new Windows 7 task bar isn't better designed and user friendly then the Mac dock. It's leaps and bounds better. Thats just one example of many. As for comparing components simply google yourself my M70sa and what it has compared to your MBP and you can't even come close to features – and again for 1/2 the price and it's now a year and a half old. Oh and by the way the supposed 'great' battery life of the MAC is a direct result of the low end components – i.e. 5400rpm HD ( i'm running dual 7200 320gig ) 512mb video low end video cards ( i'm running ATI Radeon 3650 with a 1gig of memory ) 5 Altec Lansing speakers ( yes built in ) and many many more features no mac even has an option for and i still get over 2.5 hrs of battery life. So when you try to compare your 'latest and greatest mac' please do so against say a 4yr old PC because c'mon really now, MAC hardware just isn't cutting edge. I will say the ONLY feature i like is the magnetic power connector – but again thats when it works and isn't causing a fire for which they are known for. But i guess thats another Apple first huh?

Anyway this has been fun and all and you can have the last word so as to make you feel like you made the right choice. Thats if you can drag yourself away from those oh so cute commercials Apple does that tells you about all the great features of the MAC…oh wait….they don't actually have any commercials like that now do they….hmmmm….wonder why….. like they say the best compliment…..

have a good one

And i too think, we're probably not going to convince each other. But apart from your criticism of Apple business model, i dont see any valid argument arguing the fact that Apple's products are consistently better than those offered by competition (usually 5-10 years after the initial Apple debut).

Regarding Apple's business model… do i care if a company like Apple is vertical (supply everything from the hardware, software, services and support (with the option to customize it later to my specifications)) under a single company ? as opposed to a Wintel companies like (Microsoft, Dell, HP, Acer, Sony, etc) which share responsibility across the entire usage of the product ? As a consumer…not really, if i can walk into a store put down money and have a usable/working product supplied to me (unfortunately though, not all products are created equal, with the big glaring difference being software, and with the model that WinTel has adopted there are more chances of the product/experience 'breaking')

“Glue toothpicks”/”house of cards”…well if you know what’s needed to be done/downloaded, it'll take you 2-3 minutes. What if you don’t(like most “real world” users) ? since I switched to the Mac 10 years ago, i haven’t even bothered keeping up with Viruses/Trojans/Worms/Conflickr/spyware/rootkit/malware/adware, and I’m not about to sacrifice all that saved time and productivity by reading up on the intricacies of what Windows protects against, what I need to configure/change, what programs I need to dl/install to get a Wintel box up to the level that my Mac is. On a similar note…. since i switched to the Mac, I haven’t had to be subjected to DMAs/IRQs or any other unnecessarily technical documentation to get what I need done on a computer. Now-a-days i only Windows in the work environment (unfortunately), and there are “IT” professionals who configure and set-up everything. (I'm not in “IT”, I’m a software developer/computer scientist).

So yeah…regarding that 17″ notebook, if you are claiming that there is hardware out there comparable to the 17″ macbook pro's hardware, please provide a link, cause I would be interested in getting one myself (I’m not interested in Windows mind you, but lets just focus on the hardware for this discussion). So I assume this laptop you speak of, has better battery life, and is thinner and lighter than the 17″-MacBook Pro? Has 802.11n, LED backlit LCD, FireWire800, a backlit keyboard, magnetic latch/magnetic power cord, etc… and it's $1k cheaper, right ?

I'm assuming the laptop you found has all that, if not better copies of those features. That’s sweet…. looking forward to that link and possibly ordering one myself (of course I’ll probably put Linux/Be/Darwin on it), but that’s beside the point.

Also, I’m curious, and still waiting for someone here to point out an 'original'/'unique' idea that debuted in a Windows OS before the MacOS/NextStep/Unix that makes it ‘better’ or technically more advanced/newer? Cause it still appears to be that Apple is 5-10 years ahead in terms of technologies designed/implemented in their OS and on their mobile devices, and apart from telling me, I drink the 'apple kool-aid' i haven’t had that question answered.

As far as performance, If Windows is in fact capable of performing better(on the same hardware), what exactly is this article dismissing as irrelevant/inconsequential?

But I have to comment on your number 2 item as you make no sense at all. Glue toothpicks together?? I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that you actually have to download, install and configure something all in 2-3 minutes is too difficult?

And number 5. What I was saying is come 3 years down the road you will still be using 5 year old hardware unable to upgrade while us PC users can simply spend couple hundred bucks and be once again ahead of the pack. And you really need to do some real world testing as 90% of the time the PC will out perform the MAC. Also yes the 'cheaper' 17″ laptop PC has all the fancy features of the MBP STILL for about $1000 less.

Anyway all this like I said is moot as people are going to make their own choices. Me I prefer to be able to make my OWN choices and not be told by a company what I can and can't use for software/hardware etc. You and other MAC users will like I said before continue to drink that Apple flavored kool-aide.

1. Included Apps. yeah i do. the fact that i dont need to scour the web for a decent movie editor, or for a hack media-PC or a decent photo organization app or a high production value DVD authoring solution increase the value immensely. Of course if i did want to find a different solution, i could. but the fact that i am supplied with exceptional quality programs out of the box means i dont have to. “Clunky” would be “Windows Media Player” “Windows Movie Maker” which are resource higgs, and the increasingly antiquated “minesweep” and “solitaire”…of course Windows has to copy the Mac of 7-9 years ago and include Chess now, which only highlights Microsoft sheer lack of culture and refinement.

2. See, i as a computer user and programmer on both platforms(actuially all 3) didnt even know that. the fact that i’d have to look around to find it and waste my time doing so when using Windows (instead of actually being productive), only highlights my point that you need to glue toothpicks together to get Windows to a usable state. Sure u can, if you know what your doing(been subject to said ailments in the past, like most of you), but personally, im not keen of researching every miniscule aspect of an OS to get it to a usable state. i’d prefer when i pay for any product, i have it at a level of simplicity and usability out of the box, with the OPTION for the complex, and not the other way around.

4. Wow that’s a lot of Macbooks,…. my sister’s Toshiba’s hinge broke off, my dad’s toshiba’s GPU overheated. 3X machines of a relative were compromised with viruses and malware (and they had an “IT” guy to manage systems in their business)…see we can go on all day… I never said Apple or Macs were perfect, just a lot better(while your GF is the exception, I can find an army of dissatisfied Windows users)….and when there is a problem call AppleCare, they wont give you the heave-ho between the OS manufacturer, or the hardware makers…service. It’s better. And none of what I mentioned has been made up. My 7 year old powerbookG4 was running till the day someone tripped over the power chord dropping it 5 feet damaging the power supply and HDD. My 4 year old MacMiniG4 has been running for about 4 years, and only switched off when going on vacation (once or twice a year). It’s been restored once, when a windows user tried to delete some System files (it still booted into the OS but was not usable)….
5. Value…. In the system. I don’t buy components of system, I buy a whole system, which is hardware+ software. The sum of the parts in a Mac out values any windows computer, primarily because of the quality of the software on there. The productivity gains, the aesthetically pleasing, the better performance (on same hardware like this article illustrates) gains…are what matter. Sure your GPU maybe a 100Mhz ‘faster’, but a Mac user will still get the job done faster and have a better quality product in the end.
And yeah, I do think they both have their place in the market. Just as Mercedes and Toyotas have their place, etc. Windows users like yourself are obsessed with size and speed. You get your 17” laptop which is cheaper than a 17” Macbook, but you forgo the very purpose of buying a laptop, by getting one with is bigger, heavier and much worse battery life than a similarly specked Mac laptop…but hey it’s cheaper, right ? tremendous value there because of the extra MBs and Mhz, and Windows, right ?

If Windows PCs are so much better, why do they aspire to be more Mac like in hardware design (widescreen laptops, unibody, backlit keyboards, etc), hardware features(built in WiFi, iSight, etc), software design(face it Windows is still 5-8 years behind the Mac, it has only just caught up with OSX10.1) and software features(Chess ?, GPU compositing and rendering of the desktop, iMovie, etc)? if they’re so great why not do their own thing and come up with their own ideas ? Why always look to Apple for new ideas ?
And yea…. You mentioned a cheaper 17” laptop…. Does it have a backlit keyboard ? FireWire800 ? 1” thick ? how does it compare in weight and size ? multitouch trackpad ? magsafe power chord ? All the “luxuries” a portable computer*should* have instead of just a few extra Mhzs, that make using it better?

So year….all cars have steering wheels and engines and seats, none are perfect, but not all cars are equal. While some people prefer to buy an incomplete car and fix it up till its road worthy, others prefer to save their time and invest in a reliable, safe and better car, nd start using it without having to read manuals and security documentation.

1. Included Apps. yeah i do. the fact that i dont need to scour the web for a decent movie editor, or for a hack media-PC or a decent photo organization app or a high production value DVD authoring solution increase the value immensely. Of course if i did want to find a different solution, i could. but the fact that i am supplied with exceptional quality programs out of the box means i dont have to. “Clunky” would be “Windows Media Player” “Windows Movie Maker” which are resource higgs, and the increasingly antiquated “minesweep” and “solitaire”…of course Windows has to copy the Mac of 7-9 years ago and include Chess now, which only highlights Microsoft sheer lack of culture and refinement.

2. See, i as a computer user and programmer on both platforms(actuially all 3) didnt even know that. the fact that i’d have to look around to find it and waste my time doing so when using Windows (instead of actually being productive), only highlights my point that you need to glue toothpicks together to get Windows to a usable state. Sure u can, if you know what your doing(been subject to said ailments in the past, like most of you), but personally, im not keen of researching every miniscule aspect of an OS to get it to a usable state. i’d prefer when i pay for any product, i have it at a level of simplicity and usability out of the box, with the OPTION for the complex, and not the other way around.

4. Wow that’s a lot of Macbooks,…. my sister’s Toshiba’s hinge broke off, my dad’s toshiba’s GPU overheated. 3X machines of a relative were compromised with viruses and malware (and they had an “IT” guy to manage systems in their business)…see we can go on all day… I never said Apple or Macs were perfect, just a lot better(while your GF is the exception, I can find an army of dissatisfied Windows users)….and when there is a problem call AppleCare, they wont give you the heave-ho between the OS manufacturer, or the hardware makers…service. It’s better. And none of what I mentioned has been made up. My 7 year old powerbookG4 was running till the day someone tripped over the power chord dropping it 5 feet damaging the power supply and HDD. My 4 year old MacMiniG4 has been running for about 4 years, and only switched off when going on vacation (once or twice a year). It’s been restored once, when a windows user tried to delete some System files (it still booted into the OS but was not usable)….
5. Value…. In the system. I don’t buy components of system, I buy a whole system, which is hardware+ software. The sum of the parts in a Mac out values any windows computer, primarily because of the quality of the software on there. The productivity gains, the aesthetically pleasing, the better performance (on same hardware like this article illustrates) gains…are what matter. Sure your GPU maybe a 100Mhz ‘faster’, but a Mac user will still get the job done faster and have a better quality product in the end.
And yeah, I do think they both have their place in the market. Just as Mercedes and Toyotas have their place, etc. Windows users like yourself are obsessed with size and speed. You get your 17” laptop which is cheaper than a 17” Macbook, but you forgo the very purpose of buying a laptop, by getting one with is bigger, heavier and much worse battery life than a similarly specked Mac laptop…but hey it’s cheaper, right ? tremendous value there because of the extra MBs and Mhz, and Windows, right ?

If Windows PCs are so much better, why do they aspire to be more Mac like in hardware design (widescreen laptops, unibody, backlit keyboards, etc), hardware features(built in WiFi, iSight, etc), software design(face it Windows is still 5-8 years behind the Mac, it has only just caught up with OSX10.1) and software features(Chess ?, GPU compositing and rendering of the desktop, iMovie, etc)? if they’re so great why not do their own thing and come up with their own ideas ? Why always look to Apple for new ideas ?
And yea…. You mentioned a cheaper 17” laptop…. Does it have a backlit keyboard ? FireWire800 ? 1” thick ? how does it compare in weight and size ? multitouch trackpad ? magsafe power chord ? All the “luxuries” a portable computer*should* have instead of just a few extra Mhzs, that make using it better?

So year….all cars have steering wheels and engines and seats, none are perfect, but not all cars are equal. While some people prefer to buy an incomplete car and fix it up till its road worthy, others prefer to save their time and invest in a reliable, safe and better car, nd start using it without having to read manuals and security documentation.

I especially loved your analogy at the end.

Just my 2c.

Just my 2c.

While initial/startup price of Windows MIGHT be lower (if you assemble your own PC, but apart from uber nerds who really does that?), it’s the lifespan COST/performance of the machine where the Mac trumps the Windoze-PCs in spades !

lets go over your items:

1. included apps: Do you really use those ‘apps’ that come with a Mac? Most every Mac user I know – including my GF who swears by the MAC, doesn’t use any of those clunky programs other then Time Machine as for real world apps boots into windows.

2. Pricing of of antivirus/spyware etc. Windows Security Essentials is free and works just as good as most of the paid software out there. And as most people will tell you you are just not likely to get a world crashing virus in everyday work.

3. Said GF is on her 4th macbook – her son on his 3rd. Hardware failures in all. So much for controlling what components are inside. Meanwhile my 5/yr old Dell Inspiron with 2gigs of ram and a 60gig HD is still running 24/7 with Windows 7 like it was brand new.

4. resale value. Only true for another person who likes macs. And sorry ALL Computers lose value from day one. Mac’s aren’t hidden from this.

5. Value? I’m guessing you are only talking about the integrity of the internals? Hate to say it but the insides come from the same Asian makers, and to be honest Apple uses at times ‘old’ technology i.e. their video cards are almost always last years models. Their ‘entry level’ 13″ laptops are almost twice as much for a similar configured 15″ laptop made by PC makers. And forget about the price/comparison for a MBP.

Again, YES they both have plus and minus but in the real world, people do not usually have $2500 to put down for MBP which IMO is the ONLY MAC that APPLE really puts care into. So for the rest of us we can get a fully loaded up 17″ laptop with all the bells and whistles for half that price with the idea that two years down the road we can upgrade the internals for minimal costs and be like new again.

lets go over your items:

1. included apps: Do you really use those ‘apps’ that come with a Mac? Most every Mac user I know – including my GF who swears by the MAC, doesn’t use any of those clunky programs other then Time Machine as for real world apps boots into windows.

2. Pricing of of antivirus/spyware etc. Windows Security Essentials is free and works just as good as most of the paid software out there. And as most people will tell you you are just not likely to get a world crashing virus in everyday work.

3. Said GF is on her 4th macbook – her son on his 3rd. Hardware failures in all. So much for controlling what components are inside. Meanwhile my 5/yr old Dell Inspiron with 2gigs of ram and a 60gig HD is still running 24/7 with Windows 7 like it was brand new.

4. resale value. Only true for another person who likes macs. And sorry ALL Computers lose value from day one. Mac’s aren’t hidden from this.

5. Value? I’m guessing you are only talking about the integrity of the internals? Hate to say it but the insides come from the same Asian makers, and to be honest Apple uses at times ‘old’ technology i.e. their video cards are almost always last years models. Their ‘entry level’ 13″ laptops are almost twice as much for a similar configured 15″ laptop made by PC makers. And forget about the price/comparison for a MBP.

Again, YES they both have plus and minus but in the real world, people do not usually have $2500 to put down for MBP which IMO is the ONLY MAC that APPLE really puts care into. So for the rest of us we can get a fully loaded up 17″ laptop with all the bells and whistles for half that price with the idea that two years down the road we can upgrade the internals for minimal costs and be like new again.

While initial/startup price of Windows MIGHT be lower (if you assemble your own PC, but apart from uber nerds who really does that?), it’s the lifespan COST/performance of the machine where the Mac trumps the Windoze-PCs in spades !

While everyone loves to slam Microsoft, I think they've done well on Win7, even if it is what should have been released instead of Vista! </rant>

There are always going to be pros and cons to any software, but as you pointed out, there is a lot of snobbery in which way a user will sway.
Live and let live!

Good job.

Stephen